*AuthorTopic: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.  (Read 7861 times)

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torankusu

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Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« on: April 23, 2012, 10:23:05 AM »
So I've been letting people know for a while that our servers do not allow the dead to communicate with the living. I started doing this because people didn't notice that they weren't seeing dead players' chat or hearing them via voice chat while they were alive (even a couple regulars didn't realize this) and I didn't want them to get frustrated that no one was listening or let them continue to waste their time. People do it a lot, especially to give out spy warnings right after they die.

A couple reactions to this news were surprise that our server didn't have this enabled because "most servers do" (I don't know about most, but I know a lot of them do) and one person who used to play here more often even got mad about it. Well, he seemed mad -- he was swearing and talking about how stupid it was that we didn't have it enabled -- and he directed it at me (as if I had control over that).

Personally, I'm okay with how the server is right now, but I do like being able to communicate to the team when I'm dead. If there are any concerns about quickplay requirements, it looks like enabling alltalk doesn't affect quickplay, so since it's like a step down from alltalk, I think allowing players to hear/read dead players' chat will be okay.

Anyway, I try to encourage people to post on the forums about the stuff they mention to me, not only to get the forums a little busier, but also because I think it's important that their opinions get heard and not just by one admin (I mean whoever's in the server, not just me). xP They're not really doing it, though, so I'm posting this on their behalf. If we want more players to comment on this topic, I'll see about getting people in this thread.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 10:29:43 AM by torankusu »

Dave

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 12:07:31 PM »
I'd definitely love to have dead talk enabled. I'll take a look at options when I get home.
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fernplant

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 12:48:48 PM »
I do see some servers have I guess "dead talk" enabled, but it kind of ruins gameplay for spy classes, not like everyone hates the spy enough already. Here are some off the top of my head thoughts of how it can affect gameplay:

  • The other team will be able to call out "Hey Player1, turn around there is a spy behind you." with the advantage of being able to jump to any player and have a 360 camera view around them
  • Warn the team of impeding flanks
  • Let your teammates know where the red Spy/Scout is near your spawn that is constantly taking out your teles

Coming from earlier FPS like Counter Strike (bhop ftw) I grew up playing where you can't hear your dead teammates so I'm not surprised or shocked that it's not enabled on Hyperion. If Hyperion decides to put the mod in then I won't complain nor will I whine if it's not enabled, perhaps there should be a poll on the website where they can just vote w/o registration to get a feel for what people want.

Also I blame torankusu.

torankusu

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 02:30:00 PM »
I do see some servers have I guess "dead talk" enabled, but it kind of ruins gameplay for spy classes, not like everyone hates the spy enough already. Here are some off the top of my head thoughts of how it can affect gameplay:

  • The other team will be able to call out "Hey Player1, turn around there is a spy behind you." with the advantage of being able to jump to any player and have a 360 camera view around them
  • Warn the team of impeding flanks
  • Let your teammates know where the red Spy/Scout is near your spawn that is constantly taking out your teles

Coming from earlier FPS like Counter Strike (bhop ftw) I grew up playing where you can't hear your dead teammates so I'm not surprised or shocked that it's not enabled on Hyperion. If Hyperion decides to put the mod in then I won't complain nor will I whine if it's not enabled, perhaps there should be a poll on the website where they can just vote w/o registration to get a feel for what people want.

As a former CS player, I know where you're coming from. I absolutely hate alltalk, even on TF2, because I don't like the other team hearing things like we know where their spy is going (and then have him change directions) or that we're coming in with an uber. I'm a little more open to the "dead talk" on TF2, though, because you respawn relatively quick and it's not as if you're sitting out for the remainder of a round and telling your team where everyone is, like CS where you're dead until the next round and people ghost until the new round.

I think a lot of TF2 servers try to compensate for having dead talk by disabling certain camera views, like free chase camera (it's on in our servers, though) and view of the enemy team (which we have off).

Quote
Also I blame torankusu.

:(

Plasma

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2012, 05:56:07 PM »
Thank you for relaying feedback from players Torank :)
As you said, it would be nice if they came forward themselves, but it's still an important issue we can talk about now.

It would be nice to define exactly what dead alltalk means.
1). Dead players can talk to dead and live players on their team and chat with live players on both teams.
2). Dead players can chat with live players on both teams, but cannot talk.
3). Dead players can chat only with their team, and cannot talk.
4). Dead players can chat only with their team and can talk to their team.
5) etc...

As Fernplant pointed out, if we any of the above, it will be more difficult for spies to do their job effectively. I like the fact that spies can take out targets that are by themselves without anybody noticing, especially using the Eternal Reward (*DEAD*: WATCH OUT GUYS, SPY IS ME!!!). It also becomes a lot more interesting because you rely on your live teammates to spot spies (Plasma: Spy just killed our medic, watch out!).

Here are few things that come to mind for me:
a). We're running 32 player servers. Dead alltalk might make it more difficult for "alive" players to communicate with other still alive players (such as a medic/heavy pair, spy+spy teams, etc...) Too many players talking at the same time.
b). It might encourage trolling. A sniper kills Player A. Player A gets really mad while dead and spams the chat (because he's dead, he's got nothing else to do atm).
c). ?

I like the way it currently works. Dead chat/talk is fine on public servers, and we're running public servers (32 players at that), but I think keeping it off increases skill level slightly. Spies (and other classes too, like snipers even engies a little) rely on the element of surprise. We have already restricted dead spectator mode to your teammates only for that very reason. I think enabling dead chat/talk goes against that.

About asking players their opinions with votes. It's a good idea, unfortunately too few players come on the forums, so the poll wouldn't be really useful. Now I agree we should give more reasons to come check out the forums, but that's another topic.

Again, we will look for options, and maybe we can find a good compromise. If you have played on servers with dead chat/talk enable, post your thoughts. How did they set it up (can dead players talk/chat with everybody?) Did it affect the way you played? Were players happy/angry about it?
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Cirno

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2012, 01:08:52 AM »
A couple reactions to this news were surprise that our server didn't have this enabled because "most servers do" (I don't know about most, but I know a lot of them do)

Speaking of which!

Quote from: torankusu
Apr 23, 2012 9:41:09 pm Selling a bunch of clean normal weapons. One scrap per item. !bp toran to see what I have. Pg. 5 and 6.

We don't have this plugin. ;)

Quote from: plasma
It would be nice to define exactly what dead alltalk means.
I think the most common interpretation is: dead players can use say and say_team, and team VOIP. (same as if they were alive)

If you were killed by a good spy, your warning to the team would likely be too late to be useful by the time you finished typing. And if you were killed by a bad spy, they are likely to die soon anyway. And if you have good pyros, spies are already screwed. ;D

Most people are actually pretty quiet, even if they have a mic. We can... 'deal with'... anyone who abuses deadtalk. It's a different matter than dead spectating entirely. Being able to see the location of every enemy is practically cheating. With deadtalk, you only relay what you already know. Besides, players can already talk while dead with TS/Vent/Skype if they really wanted to.

Edit: We could put a poll on our MOTD. Players who disable HTML MOTDs would miss out though, so you'd have to put a reminder that we're having a vote in the chat.

Oh and,
Quote from: torankusu, again
So I've been letting people know for a while that our servers do not allow the dead to communicate with the living.
"Please do not attempt to communicate with the deceased on this server. Mediums, ouiji boards, scrying, and necromancy are prohibited." :D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 01:16:01 AM by cirno »

torankusu

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2012, 12:10:40 PM »
Thank you for relaying feedback from players Torank :)
As you said, it would be nice if they came forward themselves, but it's still an important issue we can talk about now.

It would be nice to define exactly what dead alltalk means.
1). Dead players can talk to dead and live players on their team and chat with live players on both teams.
2). Dead players can chat with live players on both teams, but cannot talk.
3). Dead players can chat only with their team, and cannot talk.
4). Dead players can chat only with their team and can talk to their team.
5) etc...

As Fernplant pointed out, if we any of the above, it will be more difficult for spies to do their job effectively. I like the fact that spies can take out targets that are by themselves without anybody noticing, especially using the Eternal Reward (*DEAD*: WATCH OUT GUYS, SPY IS ME!!!). It also becomes a lot more interesting because you rely on your live teammates to spot spies (Plasma: Spy just killed our medic, watch out!).

Here are few things that come to mind for me:
a). We're running 32 player servers. Dead alltalk might make it more difficult for "alive" players to communicate with other still alive players (such as a medic/heavy pair, spy+spy teams, etc...) Too many players talking at the same time.
b). It might encourage trolling. A sniper kills Player A. Player A gets really mad while dead and spams the chat (because he's dead, he's got nothing else to do atm).
c). ?

I like the way it currently works. Dead chat/talk is fine on public servers, and we're running public servers (32 players at that), but I think keeping it off increases skill level slightly. Spies (and other classes too, like snipers even engies a little) rely on the element of surprise. We have already restricted dead spectator mode to your teammates only for that very reason. I think enabling dead chat/talk goes against that.

About asking players their opinions with votes. It's a good idea, unfortunately too few players come on the forums, so the poll wouldn't be really useful. Now I agree we should give more reasons to come check out the forums, but that's another topic.

Again, we will look for options, and maybe we can find a good compromise. If you have played on servers with dead chat/talk enable, post your thoughts.

These are all very good points!

Quote
How did they set it up (can dead players talk/chat with everybody?)

The servers that come to mind when I think of dead talk are TN and skial. They both have it set up so that it's not quite alltalk. I'm 99% sure they have their settings the same as each other's servers. I joined TN earlier this evening to make sure before I posted this. They have it set so that you can everyone's chat text when they're dead and for voice, you can only hear your own team's. They only time they have alltalk enabled is at the end of the round. skial can actually have alltalk on if people vote for it in the votemenu, but otherwise, it's set to the way I described.

If you were killed by a good spy, your warning to the team would likely be too late to be useful by the time you finished typing. And if you were killed by a bad spy, they are likely to die soon anyway. And if you have good pyros, spies are already screwed. ;D

Most people are actually pretty quiet, even if they have a mic. We can... 'deal with'... anyone who abuses deadtalk. It's a different matter than dead spectating entirely. Being able to see the location of every enemy is practically cheating. With deadtalk, you only relay what you already know. Besides, players can already talk while dead with TS/Vent/Skype if they really wanted to.

Hmm, this is true, too.

Speaking of which!

We don't have this plugin. ;)

lol, pretty much every time I typed that in chat, I said, "oops" or said something in voice chat. I bound that to F2 (and a variation of it to F4) and F1 is my Friends overlay hotkey. T_T  I was getting used to hitting F2 while in the trade servers that when I wanted to check my friends list, I'd hit the wrong button. D:

Quote
Oh and,"Please do not attempt to communicate with the deceased on this server. Mediums, ouiji boards, scrying, and necromancy are prohibited." :D

 :D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 12:13:23 PM by torankusu »

fernplant

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2012, 06:00:09 PM »
Again, we will look for options, and maybe we can find a good compromise. If you have played on servers with dead chat/talk enable, post your thoughts. How did they set it up (can dead players talk/chat with everybody?) Did it affect the way you played? Were players happy/angry about it?

My experience with dead talk/chat was that people mainly used it to call out spies that were using Your Eternal Reward or spies coming up behind teammates, but only their teammates could hear/see the team chat. General chat was used to mainly complain about their deaths or how crappy their team was.

bluezhaan

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2012, 02:42:37 PM »
When dead people chat, I'd like to see and hear ghost like moaning only :)

SpartanX

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 08:28:09 PM »
Leave it like it is.  Like fern said it ruins the game in some aspects if they are able to inform their team while dead.

ATARIS

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2012, 11:55:27 AM »
Leave it like it is.  Like fern said it ruins the game in some aspects if they are able to inform their team while dead.

I agree.  I really like the way it is cause it allows spies to be spies and etc.  I know when I get killed by a spy i immediately type in chat about it and really even if i'm guilty of trying to call a spy out when dead I feel it's not fair.


The only thing I'd like to suggest is maybe all talk when the round is over??  I've seen a server do this once I think (unless it was from CS way back in the day) but I think it'd be neat to voice communicate with the other team at the end of every round =]

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 10:49:50 AM »
I would have to agree with the others who say to leave it off. Yes it would be nice to warn my team members about a spy or ask another engie to heal my building when a spy back stabs me and saps all of my stuff but it takes the fun out of the game. It wouldn't be TF2 if you could warn your team about spies or anything else for that matter. I say leave it the way it is.

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 08:30:29 PM »
Leave it the way it is. And that's coming from someone with hundreds of hours as Pyro in order to stop spies. as much as you want to call out to help your team, its really not fair imo. and there is some lag in voice chat (even more if you type something and need someone to read it) so likely any spy stabs or whatever would still happen.

I think it would also add a lot background, and unnecessary chatter for those who are alive, of "omg how did he get me!?!?" "that was bullshit!!!!" "HHAAAAAAAXX!!!!"

And if you're viewing from one of the cameras, instead of a first person perspective.. thats already some unfair information it seems.

plus, if is real important, it will still probably be important in 10-20 seconds

Cirno

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Re: Hearing/seeing voice chat and team chat for dead players.
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2012, 05:43:50 PM »
Thing is though, EVERYBODY talks while they are dead, as though they expect to be heard.