*AuthorTopic: A solution for the second server  (Read 3985 times)

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Jaunty

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A solution for the second server
« on: November 30, 2014, 11:29:25 AM »
*I know this is a very long post so I split it up into multiple posts to make it easier to navigate*

I decided to finally make a very lengthy, detailed post about this because I'm tired of hearing people talk about how stale the stock PL maps are getting and because i also want something new for hyperion.  I was very excited to be able to play some of my favorite custom maps with this community because it really is the best community in TF2.  Server #1 (Payload) has something unique now that no other servers I know of have; a 32 man server with a mix of stock AND custom payload only maps that also has an awesome group of regulars.

I understand the quick play change hasn't been easy on any community, that's why there needs to be a reason for the regulars from #1 to start becoming regulars on #2.  Server #1 has enough people wanting to join that the population will not suffer.  With the addition of custom payload maps we all still have a reason to play there.  However, when there are regulars starting to play on #2 more players will gravitate to it.  How to actually fill a server without quickplay has already been discussed enough so I won't go any further into it.  Now onto how to keep them there.

When the CP change to was made to server #2 it was very popular at the beginning, then eventually died off despite the best efforts made by a few to keep it alive by logging on everyday. It was even full capacity serveral times.  The reason why the CP only server failed is because it's exhausting to do CP maps back to back for a long period of time.  They will keep a players interest long enough to finish a game or 2 but there has to be other maps in the rotation to break up the monotony.  If only A/D maps are added, it leads to a quick burnout because there just arent enough maps to make it interesting.  We end up doing the same 3-4 maps over and over.  Even on the payload server, the server will vote on a terrible custom payload map (pl_dustbowl) if the only other options are goldrush and hoodoo, because we are so desperate for something new.  We all know it's not the funnest map to play, but it's just not goldrush.  If people are willing to play pl_dustbowl, I can't see any reason why they wouldn't play the A/D version of dustbowl on the other server.  I know it's a tired map but it's a hell of a lot better than the payload version of it.  A mixed gamemode server is the solution.  From what i hear in voice chat everyday on hyperion and from what i've read on these forums, this seems to be the change that people want.

I've spent over 500 hours on just one server that was a mixed mode 32 man server as well as several hours on other mixed mode 32 man servers.  I have a lot insight on this topic so instead of giving you just this suggestion of "please make a mixed mode server" and leaving it up to you to figure out the details of what I'm asking for, I'm going to outline exactly why certain maps should be added and why certain maps should not be added for a 32 man server.  I keep saying 32 man because it's important to consider this as most of you know already. I also suggest not adding every stock map at first because it's still new to this community. Even though we've all played them, we just haven't played them together before. I'm still going to go over every stock map (except payload) in case there is an arguement made against my suggestions. Keep in mind I'm trying to not have any favoritism in my suggestions, im basing this purely off of what i've experienced as maps that work well for a majority of people.  Maps that players stick around for instead of maps that are potential server killers.  I'm going to do the best i can to keep these brief because I'm not asking to remove a map from a rotation, which would require a very solid arguement.  We're talking about building a rotation, not taking anything away. If this works out, in the future some of the other ones can be added. The maps I have an asterisk next to are ones that should be in the rotation, without any hesitation.



Jaunty

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2014, 11:30:29 AM »
Payload

Let's get payload out of the way first because everyone loves it but I'm still suggesting stock only payload maps. I know, I know... please no more goldrush.  I hear ya, I really do.  If you don't have payload maps in your rotation most players will get burned out quickly.  This might not apply to everyone but it does apply to most people, especially when most people are coming from a payload only server.  Regulars will learn to appreciate them after an intense CP round. It's easy and it's familiar.  If the regulars still don't want to do a round of goldrush on the mixed mode server, there's this really awesome server that has a great payload map rotation now... hint hint...  join that one and come back when it's over.

*Badwater
*Goldrush
*Hoodoo
*Barnblitz
*Frontier
*Thundermountain
*Upward

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2014, 11:31:31 AM »
Control Point

I know there was some hesitation on 5cp maps in the past.  That's really a shame because they're a lot of fun once you learn them (and I consider myself a PL junkie, too!).  The easy fix to keeping them from going on and on is to set these maps on a time limit and when it's up, we go to sudden death.  I've found that the sweet spot for CP is 35-40 mins OR until 2 rounds have been played.  Then it's on to the next map.  It works very well.

5gorge - This map way too big even for 32 players.  The spawn changes don't make any sense either.  The walk is so long that you find yourself walking more than actually fighting which leads to a dull game.  And because there's an A/D version that is a lot better, this is a map needs to be out of the rotation.

*5badlands
- This map is huge, too.  Great for 32 players.  The difference is the spawn changes are close enough that when you have someone destroying your entrance tele (or simply don't have an engineer on your team), the walk isn't too far and you can get right back into combat.  The 2nd capture point is usually a struggle to get and there are so many ways in and out of the last point that it's possible to win or lose within seconds after the 2nd is captured, unless you had someone already prepared to defend it.  It requires a bit more common sense and coordination than some of the other maps.

*coldfront- Coldfront breaks up the monotonous scenery in TF2.  Instead of the standard brownish red and gray everywhere, there's snow! Even that is a nice change to see once in a while.  It's also an expertly designed map and fun to play on any class.  Every CP is able to be retaken if needed, without overcoming a huge coordination effort.  I've also noticed this map as being a server filler map of 5cp maps, along with foundry.

*foundry - A community favorite?  Need i say more?

fastlane- Again, this map is just way too long.  More walking than fighting unless you have an allstar engineer on your team.  Even if you do, theres usually someone that wants to camp your entrance tele. In this map, however, it's harder to overcome the last point without a tele which leads to dull games. No one wants to risk dying to capture a point because it's a long walk back.  Players end up fighting around corners and such instead of going for the objective.  It's not fun enough to add to a starting rotation.
 
*frieght- I'll admit, I used to dread this map when it came up in the rotation.  What i've learned is that some of the best pug matches i've ever played were on this map. Trying to capture AND defend that last point takes a big effort from both teams because the point before it is always vulnerable.  Usually these games  go into sudden death and unlike other sudden death matches, this one always seems to be more exciting because winning in this map is very satisfying.

granary- Another map that falls into the too long catagory.  You can always count on a scout at your spawn destroying entrence teles which makes it very frustrating for the whole team.  Before you say, "just kill him noob," trying to hunt him down in this huge place is awful because your team is always so spread out and theres so many places to run and hide.

gullywash
- More often than not, the map goes like this:  steam roll into a meatgrinder at the last point.  It's very difficult to recapture that point when defending because you're trapped in there without enough ways to get out *on 32 man.   It turns into a spamfest in that little room.  Even if someone says in voicechat that we just cleared outside we need to move out, most of the team won't budge.  Majority of people in pug groups love to stay inside and protect that spammy room even if it will cause you to lose.  It's just not fun enough for a starting rotation.

*process - Another community favorite.  (I know I said I was going to try and not have favortism in this post, but this one deserves some recognition)

snakewater - In my experience, this seems to be a mixed recieved map.  There isn't anything bad about it.  Servers will stay at full capactiy when it's played at peak hours but other than that, everyone seems to leave throughout the match.  I'm not sure why, it just does.  Could have just been the communities i've played it with, though.  Too risky to add to a starting rotation.

well- Another one in the "too long" catagory and i've already explained what that means.

yukon - Just a huge clusterfuck on 32 man.  Also falls into the too long issue.

standin- Another mixed recieved map what seems to be out of frustration.  People are bad at math and pattern recognition?  Idk.  I've never heard anyone say why they don't like this map, they just state their obvious feelings and sometimes it causes players to leave.  The good thing about standin is that it's short time wise :D
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 12:22:06 PM by Jaunty »

Jaunty

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2014, 11:32:38 AM »
Attack/Defend

Degroot - This is reserved for a niche group of people or for players who are very bored.  Isn't well recieved by the majority as something they want to play every night.

*Dustbowl - Community favorite.

*Egypt - Large enough for 32 players and also gives us new scenery.  I've never seen any community server die on Egypt unless its that special time at night when everyone disappears from TF2.

*Gorge - Most admins put badwater, goldrush, or dustbowl on when they want to fill their servers.  This is another one to add to the list because I've seen it happen over and over and over again.  It really is that good.

*Gravelpit - Another map that fills the server. 

Junction - Way too small for 32 players and not liked by the majority.

*Mountain Lab- Another mixed recieved map.  It looks different than any of the other maps which makes it interesting to add to the mix, but it also falls into the entrance tele campers or not having an engineer at all catagory.  It really is a long, long walk to the last point.  Since A/D is better recieved than 5cp, I would still suggest addding it as more people stick around for Mountain Lab than some of the too long CP maps.

*Steel -  Mixed recieved mostly due to its learning curve.  It's not fun for anyone with less experienced players.  When the majority of the players learn it, it's fantastic! I know this is mixed recieved but most of hyperion players pick up on maps more quickly than the average joes on valve servers.  The logic and common sense factor is just higher here.  Every CP in this map can be as hard to capture as the previous one depending on what you want to attack or defend.  Sometimes you need a lot of coordination to win, but those games usually make for the most satisfying wins.  It's just different and fun.  I would suggest keeping an eye on the popularity of this one, though.

Hydro- Where do i begin?  Going to put this one in the 2Fort catagory.  Players who love these maps are content playing for an hour or 2 on a 24/7 Hydro server.  I've never seen this on a non 24/7 Hydro server when there aren't multiple people that complain about it.  That just makes it worse.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 12:02:21 PM by Jaunty »

Jaunty

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2014, 11:33:39 AM »
PLR

Everyone seems to have their own theory on why PLR is fun or why it's the worst so I'm not going to get into it.  The bottom line is that it's one of the least popular gamemodes.  I wouldn't suggest adding more than 2 of them in the mix for that reason alone.

*Hightower- The community favorite of the stock PLR catagory, but on 32 man trying to push that damn cart up the hill can be so exhausting.  It's still fun and completely possible to win some of the time. The other some of the time you just want it to go away and play something else.  It needs a time limit.  Like i said earlier, 35-40 mins is the sweet spot for maps like this. This one in particular, however, you could get away with 30 mins. 

Nightfall-  There isn't really anything bad this map has that other PLR maps don't have, but for whatever reason players will disconnect when this map comes up.  Maybe because it's so ugly? i'm not sure.  For a starting rotation, I suggest leaving it out.

*Pipeline- Players tend to stick around for this one more than Nightfall.  Again, it's still a PLR map and everyone has their own reasons for why they love them or hate them.  I'm just saying, based off of my experience in 32 man mixed mode servers, players stick around for this one.


SD

doomsday- For 32 man, this turns into a spamfest for however long the time limit is set. Another map with a lot of player turnover.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 11:39:00 AM by Jaunty »

Jaunty

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2014, 11:34:50 AM »
KOTH

Adding a few KOTH maps adds something fresh the rotation, but adding too many and players will get burned out.  Most of these maps in 32 man pugs are won depending on which team has more mini sentry engineers and no one likes mini sentry engineers unless you are the one playing it.  Another issue with KOTH maps on 32 man servers is being able to overcome getting steam rolled.  Unlike in payload if you're getting steamrolled, there is no setting up on the last point.  Once one team captures the point, if they want to play agressively, the other team will get pushed into their spawn and they don't even bother making a coordinated effort to get out.  This happens more often on KOTH maps than any other game mode.  The nice thing about KOTH maps being in the rotation is that they're so short compared to the other gamemodes.  If you get rolled or just don't like the particular map as much, there's a new map right around the corner.

badlands- This is actually a decent KOTH map for 32 player servers but to keep the rotation from being redundant and being at risk of having too many KOTH maps, 5cp badlands is the better choice.

Viaduct- Players usually stick around for Viaduct, but much like barnblitz the pro version works better for 32 man servers. This map in particular comes to mind when thinking about the steamroll/spawn camping matches.

*Lakeside
- This is a huge KOTH map, perfect for 32 players.  The point can be easily recaptured with minimal effort compared to the others.

*Harvest- Players stay for this.  Class composition isn't as important here as some of the other maps because i've seen it won with just about everything.  Maybe because there's some protection from the mini sentries everywhere? Of course class composition should be taken into consideration, I'm just saying it's not as important on this map as having a medic on a payload map. It's very forgiving.

*Nucleus- Mixed recieved.  This is the map that people usually just mess around on.  There's so much room to just be an asshole if you want to and thats exactly what half of your team will be doing.  There's room to be the 4th sniper on your team.  To be the 5th mini sentry engineer.  To be a demo or soldier and jump on the roof to spam people and watch them try to figure out how to kill you there (because you know the 4 snipers won't even notice you're there).  To be a pyro and spawn camp one of the exits or airblast people off and watch them fall to their death.  The reason why I suggested to add it is because most people play differently on this one and sometimes it's just fun to mess around. I would keep an eye on the popularity of this one, though.

King- Too small for 32 players.

Sawmill- Mixed recieved, mostly on the dislike side.  There's usually a lot of player turnover throughout the map.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 12:30:31 PM by Jaunty »

Jaunty

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2014, 11:35:17 AM »
There you have it.  A map rotation full of mostly community favorites from every gamemode. Like I said earlier, I tried very hard to keep favortism out of my suggestions and give you reasons based off of my observations and experiences.  I also want to repeat that they aren't the same reasons i would give to remove a map from a rotation.  We're talking about building a new one, not take anything away.  If there is enough support shown on the new server it would be great to see some of the others added.

With the Holiday break coming up, now is an excellent time to make a change to server #2.  More people will be off from school/work and have more free time to play games.  I would like the admins to give this thread as much consideration as it took for me to type this all up.  And for the rest of the community, show this thread and hopefully the new server some support so we can all get what we've been asking for...  A mixed gamemode server.




The results based off of community response (subject to change):


A/D (2 rounds played) - Dustbowl, Eygpt, Gorge, Gravelpit, Mountainlab, Steel

Payload (2 rounds played) - Badwater, Goldrush, Hoodoo, Thundermountain, Frontier, Barnblitz, Upward

5CP (2 rounds played with time limit set to 35 mins)- Badlands, Coldfront, Foundry, Frieght, Process, Fastlane

PLR (2 rounds played with time limit set to 35 mins)- Hightower, Pipeline

KOTH - None

CTF - None
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 10:53:44 AM by Jaunty »

Wolfpup

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2014, 01:19:24 PM »
I'm all in favour of a mixed mode server!

I don't agree with all you said, (Maps) but over all I agree something needs to be done and I'd take anything that would help get server 2 up and running more often.

Back when it was just a twin'd "over flow server", it was full at least part of the day. I'd love to see that happen again, and I think a mixed mode server is worth a shot.

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2014, 02:09:31 PM »
hi
well a full rotation server would be a very nice thing as i have been mentioning it for a long time as number 2 is doing nothing i dont think we could loose anything
my 2 cents worth
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DrunkUncle

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2014, 05:25:26 PM »
yea mixed game modes would be great. I think Fastlane should be on it though, love that map.
"But if you were right and someone was using a bot then recording a demo and posting it here and having someone experienced review it tick by tick would reveal that bot and you could "catch" me."
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Fila!

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2014, 06:25:39 PM »
I've been trying my butt off to get a second mixed server (imo everything except for koth). I've wanted to take it as far as offering hyperion to pay for a server out of my own pocket and set it up as a mixed server. That got refused.

Edit: When I offered it I did it as "affiliating my own server with hyperion" but at the end of the day I don't give a rats ass to have my own server or not, I'll just pay hyperion the server cost if that's what it bloody takes to have a mixed server.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 06:31:51 PM by Fila! »

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2014, 06:47:41 PM »
I think Fastlane should be on it though, love that map.

Yup, me too. :)

Jaunty

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2014, 09:07:02 PM »
My suggestions were only based on my experiences on other servers while keeping in mind that having too many maps at the start that aren't as *popular as others could lead to the server dying.  Every community and player will differ as far as their favorites are concerned.  If i had it my way, all of them would be added except for 5gorge and junction.  I'm glad to see Fastlane being well recieved here because I also enjoy playing that map. By all means, add it to the list!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 09:12:10 PM by Jaunty »

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2014, 09:10:42 PM »
I've been trying my butt off to get a second mixed server (imo everything except for koth).

I'm going to ask you this because I think it's an important point.  If a KOTH map came up on a server that had mixed modes, would you stick around for that match if you knew there was a better map around the corner?  Maybe via a voting system?

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Re: A solution for the second server
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2014, 11:30:15 PM »
I keep mixing up 5gorge and gorge. Which is which? I know I love one of them (the attack defend one I think) and I hate the control points one.

I'm going to ask you this because I think it's an important point.  If a KOTH map came up on a server that had mixed modes, would you stick around for that match if you knew there was a better map around the corner?  Maybe via a voting system?

Depends really. If I just joined the server (like the map changes after I joined) I would probably ride it out. If I've been playing for let's say 90min-120min then most likely I would either leave for good or leave the server to do something else (dinner, shower etc) and then come back when KOTH is done.

I truly detest KOTH because I feel it's not in the spirit of what the original TF2 was about and if I want a pure deathmatch game I'd just go play Call of Doody.

Edit: From my experience with this community (or rather the community that played on a different server before they migrated here) KOTH maps generally killed the server. There was always a vocal minority that really wanted to play it but the moment the KOTH maps got voted (somehow) the server would die. Rarely would it survive the map and I'm talking about 2 years ago when the game had even more players than currently.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 11:31:57 PM by Fila! »