HyperionGaming.org
Team Fortress 2 => Servers Feedback => Topic started by: Dave on August 19, 2011, 06:48:00 PM
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The most common complaint on the server is about too many people playing one class. On the payload server we use a Class Limit plugin. Currently only the spy class is limited, and this is because we found that too many spies, especially good ones, would make games unfun.
Feel free to discuss anything regarding class balance or class limits here.
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You do? I have seen as many as four spy's at a time and yes that is unfun. Anything over two is unfun. They should also have a longer respawn time.
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Currently the spy limit is 3. It's possible that a spy got team switched to a team whose spy class was full. And I definitely agree about spies. Too many can make a game unfun. Maybe we'll lower the cap to 2.
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I would consider capping engineers as well, because having 5 or 6 engineers can put a complete halt to a team that doesn't do things exactly right. Maybe a cap at 4 engineers? I know that I can usually push through 4 sentries on a single uber, so a halfway competent team should be able to deal with it.
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We talked about putting hard caps on some classes, mainly spies, engies and snipers. Spies we had to set it to 3, because 4-6 spies can really destroy game balance and fun (especially if they're good spies).
We didn't want to hard cap the snipers and engies, because "usually" other players in-game will tell (or yell) players that pick these overcrowded classes to switch. It doesn't always work obviously. The other reason is that if you join the game late, and there are 3 snipers already (and they all suck), well you can't join the class. So hard capping class might prevent a good sniper to do his job correctly, and might be frustrating.
Dave has been trying to design some kind of "smart" class balance for a while. Let's just say that for now plugin development has been semi-halted because of our current traffic problems.
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if class limits does destroy the fun and the game at some point, one thing we could consider is to have class limits according to the map. Some maps would have a cap on engineers and some would not.
One time I was playing on another server and they capped the engineer to allow just 1 player. Because everyone who tried to select engineer know that the engineer caps at 1 player, the engineer player now has burden on his shoulders to protect his sentry for his team. I guess it makes people to play hard and play responsibly or you would get yelled at haha
But again, tf2 should be played for fun right? haha
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The only time I notice class issues is on Blu team when you look and notice your whole team is snipers/engies/spys. Not much you can do but yell at em. I'm pretty much against class caps since its just an annoyance, most people have 1 or 2 main classes they play or they just won't play.
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another thing is that people hate spies because they suck and don't contribute to the team rather than being too good and ruining the game. So its more of a issue of which class contributes the most since tf2 is such a teamwork demanding game
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another thing is that people hate spies because they suck and don't contribute to the team rather than being too good and ruining the game. So its more of a issue of which class contributes the most since tf2 is such a teamwork demanding game
You saying I suck? LOL
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no way haha, they told me i suck too and should change my class to something useful.
spy is just a hated class in general in all aspects haha
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Skittles you are one epically annoying spy haha.
Just leave my nest alone! :D
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Here's an idea on the class limits: max of 4 engineers, 2 snipers, 2 spies. The kicker is, class limits don't apply to verified members. I think it would definitely encourage more people to sign up, and players who are good at a class won't be annoyed if their favorite class is already occupied by some fine f2p gentleman.
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Uuuhg. Ok, I have to vent/rant.
The last couple days the sniper/spy issue has been really bad. We had 6 bloody snipers and 3 spies on Blu today, no medics, and similar numbers yesterday as well.
We didn't want to hard cap the snipers and engies, because "usually" other players in-game will tell (or yell) players that pick these overcrowded classes to switch. It doesn't always work obviously.
Sometimes it does, sometimes even more people pile onto the class just to be D-Bags. Ruining it for those of use who play TF2 for the teamwork and who actually try for the objectives.
The other reason is that if you join the game late, and there are 3 snipers already (and they all suck), well you can't join the class. So hard capping class might prevent a good sniper to do his job correctly, and might be frustrating.
I find it more frustrating having to deal with the BS. In my opinion, if bad snipers take up slots, so be it, but just limit the damage to 2, spies as well.
It drives me nuts when people say "it's a pub, who cares"..... I do, and many of my friends do to. (And they to play Hyperion) We don't play comp, but we still like a good game. Just because it's a pub doesn't mean some should be able to ruin it for others.
We shouldn't have to nag players to switch. I do not enjoy it! (Though I do do it.)
I'm not alone, there have been a lot of others complaining the last few days as well. I keep telling people to come to the forums and make their opinion known. Sadly, not a lot of people join forums to do so.
I'm begging you, please, limit spy/sniper. If for nothing else but my sanity......please?
Maybe we could try it for a bit, see how it flies?
Even after all these years, I still love this game. I just hate how others can ruin my experience by not being team players......in Team Fortress 2. It's not called Solo Fortress 2.
Something else I wanted to add, could we maybe try having a "No random kritz *whatever day here*"? It would give people a chance to experience it and see what comes of it. There really is no need for randoms on a 32 slot server seeing the game was designed for 24. The extra players offset the need for randoms. Is is possible, if you don't want this change permanent, a vote system could be set up and the players currently on can initiate the vote and let the current players decide? I'd even be happy with that, as a second option. I'd still prefer them simply removed, period.
/rant+venting
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I am comfortable with 3 snipers 3 spies. 2 seems too low for players who actually play it well. I don't think there should be limits on other classes.
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I do not see any need for more than 2 of each.
6/16 players as spy-pers is just not conducive with the goal at hand. The snipers hide at the back of the map, waiting for cherry shots. It really drags the team down. Just my opinion of course but as mentioned, I know it's shared by many who play.
P.S.
Oh hey, joined game, 4 snipers..... :( *sigh*
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We don't need limits. Instead of set limits, talk to the players. When I observe an abundence of individuals playing a single class, I directly chide them in both voice and text chat. "Can we get some more snipers?" "We'd be winning if only we had some more snipers" when there's 6 already regularly gets folks to check the team composition, and often switch.
Class limits limit the chance for fun. There have been nights with all snipers meleeing, or mass demoknights. I can appreciate why someone would want limits, but this isn't a competition server. If that's what you're looking for, Hyperion probably isn't the place for you based on the amount of folks that like screwing around.
Could you list the players other than your emc friends who feel strongly about this? Just curious, as there seems to be "many".
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I don't have names (other than EMC+friends) as my memory is kinda bad. I just know I hear people complain both in chat and voice, quite frequently.
I to try the "can we please not have X snipers and spies, pretty please". Sure, it works sometimes, but it also gives those who enjoy griefing the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon. Yeah, fun for all.....
[Facetious tone:] Admittedly, I'm at the point I'll just play what I want too, screw teamwork. Sniper is my favourite class, so I guess I'll join the party. (Pretty piss poor attitude huh? Sorry, but if you can 't beat em, join em as they say...[/Facetious tone]...not really but I still need to vent!)
No class limits limits my fun. (On occasion, not always of course.) I'm only as good as the team I am on. I feel like there is really is no point in me try when others don't want to. TF2 takes teamwork. I really hate being like that, but I do not play games to get frustrated.
Last night the server had an abundance of my friends on, and the game was bloody fun!! A real slug fest from both sides. (Friends where on both teams.) And when we did have to many of a class, or 2, the "just ask them to switch" thing worked. Fun for all. Sadly, again, some see it as a call to join the stupidity.
I'll get over it, it's just been a fly in my ointment so to speak for a long time. I was just hoping others would share their feelings on the matter, but I suspect as to people who post here, I am in the minority. I do try and point people here to share their opinion, either way. If the masses don't have issue with 6+ spy-per teams, so be it.
Ah well, see you all in game. :)
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On the flip side of that, people might just want to play sniper, regardless of winning or losing, and find it fun regardless. By adding class limits, you'd be limiting the amount of fun those players can have. Truthfully, that's the only reasonable argument I can see against class limits though.
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I don't like a limitation about classes, but I also don't like playing when I expect our team will be surely loss(no medic, too many non-heavy attack classes or stacking team).
In these times, we just need to use a scramble.
I think Hyperion people rarely do a scramble.
Maybe, the vote numbers are too high for a scramble?
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Sonic brought up the point yesterday in-game, scrambles rarely make it better. More often than not it stacks the teams even more.
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I always look at our team balance and I will play different classes to balance things out.
No spy though, I'm entirely useless as a spy. I think one thing that would help is to
NOT exempt donors to auto balance. When 20 out of 32 players are donors the scramble
doesn't really have much effect.
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Donors aren't immune to auto scramble, only auto balance. At least, that's how it's supposed to be.
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Ok, Thanks 8)
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How about a 64 player server? LOL I dont think its an engine bottleneck but a server limitation no? You need a good server to run 64 player. Hyperion being first 64 player server. That would probably fix Wolfpup's class limitations problem :P
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*proceeds to bang head on desk repeatedly*
The thought of a 64 slot server on maps designed for 24 players makes my head hurt. So does banging it on my desk.
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Oh god. Imagine all that grenade spam. It'd be like the first part of Strike at Karkand all over again.
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I'm pretty sure TF2 is hardcoded to only support a maximum of 32 players.
You can cheat the system a little bit thanks to the replay and SourceTV bots, but that's it. There were Sourcemod/Metamod extensions at one point that allowed more freedom, but I never tried them.
It's also why to run a MvM server, you actually need as much resources as running a regular 32 player server. All these bots take a slot. I've seen a mod that allows for more players on the team, but I'm not sure how they work.
I'm pretty sure the server wouldn't be stable at all with more than 32 players. There are hardcoded maximums in the Source engine, especially on the number of entities spawned on a map. Quite a few Payload maps suffer from this problem with 32 players (with the cart, the end explosions, etc...), especially thundermountain.
Conclusion: we will not see a 64 player server. Maybe if Valve releases a new game mode that supports it, or in TF3? :)
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Conclusion: we will not see a 64 player server.
Maybe if Valve releases a new game mode that supports it, or in TF3? :)
Yay!
If the maps are designed for that many, I'd have no problem. 32 is troublesome at times let alone double that as is, so.....just imagine 64. *head explodes*
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I have seen 64 tf2 player servers a few years ago and they werent so bad. Man, Wolfpup you win this one, I wanted to see a volley of nades going towards you :P going back to the class limits. yes and no. yes I dont like sniper punks who are at the bottom of the leaderboard doing nothing and spies also. But think about it. I have a slow HDD. A less experienced player can have a fast SSD and beat me to the sniper slot. Also, snipers and spies can be very handy en-masse. Have you been in a situation where a full health-450 hp heavies jumps around a corner and you have 4 grenades or rockets which 100 percent sure you will not kill him with all those 4 nades or rockets. So basically dead meat. Then a miracle happens when a sniper takes him out before he can spin his minigun-450hp to tank to ALL your 4 nades or rockets and sniper comes to the rescue.
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I'm going to beg for spy and sniper to be limited to 2 each. Other than rare occasions, it just stalls the game, and people seem to get as annoyed as I do then leave with 6+ spy-pers. I just left a perfect example of this. 3 snipers and 3 spies on Blu, with 1 medic, we went nowhere, backwards in fact. (We had pushed with a better class balance in the beginning.) Several people (friends) left, and I think I know them well enough to know it was basically "what's the point in trying". (Seeing they had hardly been on for more than 25ish minutes. Usually 1 hr+) I know it's why I left. It's simply not fun to get trounced because there is no teamwork. We wouldn't have 3 of each if there was.
I know it's been said to just ask people to change, and sure, it works sometimes, but it also has the opposite effect at times. Frankly, I just hate always having to piss and moan to get people to try. I'm sure they are as sick of hearing it as much as I am of doing it!!
I don't expect Valve to fix TF2 (Remove random kritz.) but I am hoping this one annoyance can be dealt with on the Payload server. I don't play Payload 2 so I have no opinion on it.
*hands clasped together standing on knees*
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Keep in mind that if you limit both spy and sniper to 2 each, then you're left with 28 players divided over 7 classes. That's 4 players per class. You're probably only gonna have 2 scouts, so that's 4.33 per the remaining classes class. Do you want 4 or 5 engineers? Probably not, limit it to 2. So that's 4.8 per the remaining classes class. Do you need 4 or 5 medics? 3 will do. So that's 5.25 per the remaining 4 classes. The remaining will probably be 3 pyros, 6 heavies, 6 demos, and 6 soldiers.
But I can see a max of 3 snipers and 3 spies working.
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@Dave
Wolf wants 2spys/2snipers limit each side(Blu 2/2, Red2/2)
(16-4)/7=1.724 is an enough number FTW.
@Wolf
I think this server isn't a server for professional competitions.
I already gave up to try to win. :P
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I think they're fine the way they are now. Sometimes people want to do a team huntsman and that's fun. 3 spies workout ... If you have 3 good ones on red they can really challenge the blue team to spy check more
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But I can see a max of 3 snipers and 3 spies working.
With rare exceptions, that is when things tend to stall from my observations. 3/3=stall, 3/2 or 2/3 is better, but can still be to much support, not enough push. (As we all know snipers hide at the back of the map waiting for those cherry shots. Spies tend to head to their spawn/ignore cart....ect.)
@Dave
Wolf wants 2spys/2snipers limit each side(Blu 2/2, Red2/2)
(16-4)/7=1.724 is an enough number FTW.
Yup. I think 2/2 is perfect for 32 slot servers. If I had my way in game, we would always have 3 medics as well, either side. 3 medics with 32 is what I have come to know to work. Having to many medics is detrimental too because then you again start to lose the "push" classes.
To much p***y, not enough push as I say.
@Wolf
I think this server isn't a server for professional competitions.
I already gave up to try to win. :P
Forgive me, but that is a polite way of saying "it's a pub". Personally, when people say that my thinking is, "so?". It's a team based game, so one would thing people would play as a team, no? I don't expect people to be pro, but it would be nice if people didn't hinder the game for others, those of us who like a good slug fest vs being rolled.
I know a lot of the SOP transplants are like me and still enjoy a good game when people do try and play the game as intended, with teamwork. When it's just so lopsided because people want to play what they want team be damned, a lot of us leave.
I know it's all just my opinion but after all these years of playing I still really enjoy this, the one and only online multi-player game I play. Though it gets harder and harder at times to find any joy in it.
Take it for what it is, just my opinion. I will continue to play, as I mentioned, I still love this game when we have really balanced, fun games. Steam rolls, or getting steamrolled simply is not fun, when it could have been avoided with a little tactful thought. (One just need look at classes when these things happen and it's rather self evident why it's happening. Not always, but more often than not.)
See ya in game.
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Oops @ math. I knew something seemed off when I hit post. And I thought this was the admin forum. Yeah 2 sniper/spy per side seems reasonable.
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Yeah 2 sniper/spy per side seems reasonable.
Yay, support! :) Danke.
P.S.
Again, last night, I saw evidence my theory of 3/3+ stalls the game proven correct. As soon as I asked and we went to 1/1, the cart started moving again, imagine that. /facetiousness.
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Again, last night, I saw evidence my theory of 3/3+ stalls the game proven correct. As soon as I asked and we went to 1/1, the cart started moving again, imagine that. /facetiousness.
There's already a cap of 3 spies but I don't think such a cap exists on snipers, I know for a fact I've had class full messages on spy. Hell once I was the only spy then all of a sudden I was forced to pick another class in between deaths because all of a sudden there were 3 other spies.
Forced class balance is a very slippery slope, if you cut down to 2/2 you could end up with two shitty randoms and some frustrated main who can't play his desired class. I think a restriction to 3 snipers is needed, or even better a max of 5 between the two classes though I'm not sure if that's possible.
The other thing is spy & sniper heavy on Red can work especially when defending a final push point, but on Blu it's absolutely detrimental to pushing the cart when Red has any sort of organized defense.
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Yeah, you hear the spy voice say "No" when there are 3 already. And you are correct, no limit on sniper....why we had 4/3 last night.....and guess what happened? Yup, game stalled...surprised? I am not.
However, I did play a game where we had 3/3 and we actually did pretty good, but, I suspect the other team was either 3/3 themselves and we just had a slight edge on the assault classes with 3 medics, or they were just bad players. It wasn't quite a steam roll, but I was surprised we pushed as well as we did. (A rarity.)
I'd be content with a trial period even. Test the waters, see what the community thinks in a week or two.
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Oh joy. So I joined the server this morning, and it was "team sniper". We were playing Frontier and Red had 5 snipers. So I decided "if ya can't beat em join em". So we then had 6, then 7 as I suspect someone else decided the same thing......"if ya can't beat em join em".
We seemed to have confounded Blu as we actually managed to hold them off for a bit, but as always, Blu team adapted, and we got pushed back, then pushed back some more. I switched to spy (making it 2) and we were down to 5.
Finally, people started to switch off and we got down to 2 snipers, 2 spies and 3 medics, with a couple engies, and wouldn't ya know it, we managed to win the game. *shocked face*
It would really be nice if we could clamp this stuff down. Again, my opinion is on a 32 slot server there is never a need for more than 2/2, yet I'd even be happy with 3/3 at this stage to prevent this nonsense.
/pissing and moaning
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I'm gonna chime and agree with Wolfpup on this. I thought I was alone thinking about this but a 2 per class limit would strike a perfect balance. The amount of demospam is a bit overboard as well. Hyperion has become the only server I play on because the level of maturity and competent players is far beyond that of any other pub servers I've played. I know most of the regulars are pretty well versed class wise. 5/9 I feel I can play very well and make contribution to the team. Maybe a donation perk should be in order to be void from the class limit?
And yes. I would be all for a vote option on disabling random crits or having no random crits altogether on the main server. IMO, it's nothing but BS.
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I'm gonna chime and agree with Wolfpup on this. I thought I was alone thinking about this but a 2 per class limit would strike a perfect balance. The amount of demospam is a bit overboard as well. Hyperion has become the only server I play on because the level of maturity and competent players is far beyond that of any other pub servers I've played. I know most of the regulars are pretty well versed class wise. 5/9 I feel I can play very well and make contribution to the team. Maybe a donation perk should be in order to be void from the class limit?
And yes. I would be all for a vote option on disabling random crits or having no random crits altogether on the main server. IMO, it's nothing but BS.
by having no crits i think you mean no random crit. Because not even having crits would be a serious problem. That would make the kritkrieg useless. If you are meaning by random crit and not weapons that you earn crits (like kritzkreig, charging shields, cleaner's carbine, jarate, headshots, backstabs, direct hit airborne enemies etc etc) then some are fine by it.
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Hence why I say RANDOM crits in my post which you quoted chuy. :)
Yes I'm all for the kritzkrieg and other weapons that have critz built into the featureset.
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Just adding my 2 cents to the thread. I appreciate the well thought out reasoning behind only limiting the spy class. Yes seeing 4 snipers is a bummer, especially when 3 of them are the same guys every moment of their play time and aren't that good at it. I'm usually one of those very vocal types that point out we need fewer snipers and more of X class. But the reality is, I don't see a need for a hard cap. It is usually a temporary issue and sorts itself out in short order. Either by those of us that are vehemently requesting they change class or by those that take a round off and grief the offending snipers until they change class. I read in an earlier post the concept of "verified" members not being capped (I have no clue if this is even possible) but if the server went in that direction, then I'd support a hard cap on the three major classes at 2.
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What I would give for limiting the spy and sniper to 1...
Only have to worry about 1 sniper? It's like he isn't even there!
1 Spy? I ain't even mad!
Haha on a serious note though, 3 spies and snipers seems to be a good number.
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2 is plenty.
Anything more just takes away from the assault classes/medics needed to do much of anything.
My 2 cents.
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^Agreed!
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I for one don't understand why the spy class is limited and not the sniper class. Dominance of the spy class can be controlled as spies capitalize on mistakes and the lack of spy-checking and thus spy gets progressively harder to play as the game goes on as people become more aware. However sniper is a completely different scenario as sniper depends on the individual player's skill and not the opposition's mistakes and thus has infinite potential. Personally, I'll switch from an attacking class to spy to avoid getting sniped continuously.
However, this being said, TF2 is a game and games are for fun, especially pubs. Though I'm one of the worst snipers you'll ever meet, I'll play sniper for fun just to have some fun as getting headshots is one of the most satisfactory feelings in TF2. A class limitation of 2 is too strict in my opinion and should just be left at three because as someone pointed out earlier, when losing, people will usually switch classes to something that can actually do something. (add the limitation for snipers).
I probably contradicted myself a lot but you get the idea? Just my 2 cents.